Supporting skills development in social care: Emerging digital innovation and opportunities for EdTech investment

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Ufi Ventures brought together a group of leaders from the social care sector to share perspectives, insight and vision for the sector.

Here’s what we found:

  • This big market (approx. 1.5 million employees and 6 million unpaid carers) attracts individuals who are passionate and carry out increasingly skilled work.
  • It faces structural challenges such as low pay and retention, difficulties progressing in work and lower perceived value.
  • We are seeing some exciting EdTech innovations that are changing things for the better (and attracting funding) but generally on a small scale because this is a fragmented sector.
  • More is needed to enable provision scaling and to shine a light on what works well.
  • We are particularly excited about what we’re seeing in technology platforms enabling skills evidencing and accreditation; individualised learning; micro / on-the-job learning; and best practice sharing across providers.


Background

The UK care economy is worth £158bn supported by 1.5 million adult social care workers, most of whom are employed by small and medium-sized private providers. The role of technology in ensuring care workers have the training they need and can access continuing professional development is vitally important, and an area of particular interest to us at Ufi Ventures.

More than £14bn in private capital has been invested into the sector in Europe since 2017, with most of this funding going into service-based companies. Investment into digital innovation within the sector is still relatively nascent.

In this lunchtime session chaired by the Director of Ufi Ventures, Helen Gironi, we’ll be exploring emerging digital tech for skills development in social care, the opportunities for investment and hearing from two companies active in the space.

The session is part of Ufi Ventures: focus on social care, a six-week programme of work looking at investment in EdTech for adults working in social care.


Our guests

The first of our guests for this session is Ben Allen, Founder and CEO of Oomph! Wellness, a company delivering on-demand training to care workers and their teams. Ben is also Chairman of The Care Workers Charity, working to advance the financial, professional and mental wellbeing of social care workers.

Our second guest is Helen Davies-Parsons, CEO of Dormy Care Communities. A registered nurse for 33 years and with over 27 years’ experience in the care home sector, Helen established Dormy Care Communities with a focus on providing the highest standards of care and support in the very best environments.

Our third guest is Ross Toomer, Founder of Care Reality, a Scottish start-up on a mission to transform the sector by building the world’s first Virtual Reality training platform for Adult Social Care.

Lastly, we will be joined by Steven Embleton. Currently CTO of Oomph! Wellness, Steven was the Founder and Chief Cloud of My Learning Cloud a nationally-recognised market-leading provider of learning content to the health and social care market.

Find out more about Ufi Ventures

  • Ufi Ventures: focus on social care

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    Ufi Ventures launch a six-week focus on investment in EdTech for adults working in social care.

  • Ufi Ventures

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    The UK’s specialist investor in EdTech to support adult skills and learning for work. Providing early-stage investment from £75k to £1m.

  • Ufi Ventures Portfolio

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    Building the future of adult learning and work in the UK.

Webinar transcript


Helen Gironi

Hello and welcome to our webinar on skills development in social care, really looking at emerging digital innovations with a focus from the investor's standpoint. So we are Ufi VocTech Trust, and we're a champion of the use of vocational technology to improve skills for work. We do this in three ways; through our grant funding programme, our direct investments into organisations; and advocacy. So shining a light on what works well within the sector. And we're really interested in the social care sector and particularly innovation in skills and training. For several reasons. It is a huge sector, employing 1.5 million staff and indirectly creating 600,000 jobs. In addition to 6 million unpaid carers in the sector. There's a huge opportunity, we think, to make a real change in terms of the quality of work and people's jobs in the sector. It is also clear that there is a skill shortage, an imbalance of roles and applicants for jobs and challenges such as retention and churn within the industry. But whilst that being the case, there are also some fantastic businesses that are innovating in the sector, and can change things and provide some excellent skills and training and help people feel valued and supported. I'd like to introduce my panellists today, thank you so much for joining me. I've Helen Davies-Parsons, who is CEO of a a group of care communities called Dormy Care Communities. We've got Ben Allen, who is CEO of Oomph!, and also the chair of Care Workers Charity; Steve Embleton, who is a former CEO of My Learning Cloud, an online learning provider for adult care. And last but not least, Ross Toomer, who is a founder of Care Reality, a virtual reality training platform in adult social care. So thank you very much for joining me today. So a really sort of broad question really into the state of learning within social care today. Obviously, it's been slightly, well, hugely affected by the pandemic, but looking back at sort of what was going on before that. And also, today, perhaps, Steven, you could give us some insight there.

Stephen Embleton

Yeah, thank you. So I've worked in the L&D space within health and social care for probably about 14 years. And in those 14 years there has been a real challenge across the sector to I say, embrace technology, when it comes to learning solutions and seeing the opportunities of what digital can do. I would say up to and including the start of the COVID pandemic, there was a real resistance to use technology as a solution and see it viably, I remember conversations I've had with Skills for Care and other organisations to get them to recognise and embrace e-learning as a format, and actually start endorsing that as an accredited format. But what we saw when COVID hit the sector is a scramble to technology in a number of different ways. Specifically, within learning, looking at e-learning and other solutions, Zoom and Teams to try and get their their learning provided. But I think the focus within this space across COVID was certainly not on learning and development. So we're sort of, we're sort of coming out of that pandemic, with with a real gap of skills within the sector. And also, in addition a skill shortage. And technology itself has been, organisations providing that across the sector has been limited. And they've been quite siloed quite small in their nature. And what it needs is a way in which we can recognise good quality learning. So when a learner goes from Care Group A to Care Group B to Care Group C, that learning is recognised and established. That's a real gap, I feel within the sector. But the use of elearning and other forms is a real high. It's about now how we can get that real blended and hybrid approach in one cohesive ecosystem, I think is where there's some little gaps and opportunities for us to embrace.

Helen Gironi

Wonderful, thanks so much, Steve. Um, I'm, I'd like to turn now to what kind of innovations you're seeing having the greatest effect within the industry. And what type do you think have the most potential to succeed at scale and therefore attract investment into the sector. Ben, can I turn to you for that?

Ben Allen

Sure. So I think there's been, yeah, over the last few years, particularly over the COVID periods, you know, mass adoption of, obviously, digital technology. So, Oomph! as one example of that went from a physical services business pre-COVID. You know, we had a bus company and a training company, to building an on-demand content platform, which is now in 1000 care services, and growing at about 100 care services per month. So that's just one example of the shift. From an educational perspective, I think that there's, we've now seen a mass adoption of care planning software within the care sector, Dormy Care will be able to talk to that through Helen in just a moment. But, but that also creates an opportunity because there's, there's richer data than has ever existed in social care. Now, I think the opportunity there comes is how do you link the learning or the content to that digital solution. And where we see the future is responsive learning, so mandatory elearning - that has a hugely important place within the market. But equally, we equally know that people forget a lot of what they've been taught. I think it's something like about 20-30%, of what someone's taught is actually retained, which means there's this massive gap of non-retained information. And so, but wouldn't it be cool if we could have more solutions, which, which create more responsive e-learning content, so e-learning CPD, so somebody clicks on the care record that our resident's got Dysphasia, then a little one minute reminder video, but as CPD, comes to is then linked through linking back to the CPD and reminding that care worker how to do that, to deliver that, that solution for that resident. Now, I think that that's what we'll see more and more, which will improve the quality of care delivered within the market. But more importantly, improve the experience of the care worker at work. Because as we know, the Care Worker Charity has studied this at length, that the number one reason for care workers leaving the industry is due to mental stress. And that's due to pressure within the care environment. And that's due to a lack of training and management within services.

Helen Gironi

Thanks, Ben. Can I turn to you now?

Ben Allen

Sorry you just cut out Helen, you said I think it was it was Ross you wanted to bring in?

Helen Gironi

Helen. Sorry. Can I turn to you then?

Helen Davies-Parsons

Yes, of course. So yeah, I think endorsing everything that's already been said, as a nurse with an education background and having worked in the independent sector for many, many years, both within my own organisation and within others. I was never actually the biggest fan of digital learning. I think what I've learned over the time is the huge benefits and that if ever that was ever brought in to be tested, it was during the last two years. The benefits of it are immeasurable. We have not as an organisation, suffered, or our learning has not suffered. Yes, it's lapsed somewhat, because our focus has been very much on delivering care rather than anything else. And with the challenge background of staff shortages, due to sickness etc. If we had not had a digital learning platform, and other services in place, I dread to think where we would have been. From a recruitment and retention perspective, the biggest thing that people talk to me about is feeling valued. And as a as a, an organisation that is very much based on values-based, nurturing, and growing people - what better way to do that than through learning and development. In my educational days, it was very much focused on, you know, giving the information but then not actually measuring, other than through examination technique, what that learner had learned. And I think what the opportunity, the availability of the opportunity through digital platforms is actually to, to develop people through a modular approach, and also to pick up on any concerns that maybe they have, or you have, about how they are able to complete that learning. And I was just giving an example this week of a care worker who has been employed with us for some time. And through digital learning, we have found that, you know, he is not able to complete this learning because he has a challenge with regards to reading. And we've been able to pick up on that through the reports have been able to get and been able to offer additional support, to sit with him in order for him to achieve the learning. It's not that he doesn't know what he needs to be putting or the answers to questions is his ability to actually put that into the space that he needs to put it in. If that young man had been sat in a classroom, he'd have been bypassed. So he would have gone away, without very, you know, having learned perhaps very much. And that would perhaps not have been picked up. The challenges that we all have within the sector are going to continue. The challenges within society are going to be continuing. But I think the opportunities that that gives are huge and immense. And I think the drive for developing further what is available, and I'm very familiar with My Learning Cloud, I'm very familiar with Oomph! Wellness, I'm not yet familiar with, with Care Reality, but I will be very shortly, because the innovation and drive that's out there, I'm fully aware of, and it's about setting ourselves in a position where we cannot be beaten, really on the innovation that's in place. Yes, it's expensive. But you have to realise that the the return on your investment is going to be very quickly realised from retention and not having to spend out on expensive agency staff where again, you've got no measurement of their skills base.

Helen Gironi

Fantastic. And I'd like to come on to the return on investment slightly later on. But thank you for that great answer. And Ross, can I just turn to you, it would be great to hear something about Care Reality and the innovation that you're offering as a business and how that changes.

Ross Toomer

Thank you, Helen. And good afternoon, everybody that's watching. We're the new kids on the block. We've just entered to this sector in this space. But we are very experienced in developing technology. And we we believe that immersive learning within simulations is the opportunity to build a blended learning package as my colleagues have described. We responded to a challenge by the Scottish Government last year; How do we provide learning opportunities for practical skills and knowledge for remote rural learners, but also for those that don't have space within their care home or within their setting to undertake classroom training? And we developed Virtual Reality simulations by developing a digital twin of a care home environment. And we recreate the training within VR, which is moving at pace, and we are the first to be doing it within the sector. Now VR has been used for 50-60 plus years. And it's being used within social care. But particularly for the end user. We're seeing cases where it's been used in dementia care, or particularly to help therapeutic interventions. But it hasn't been focused on the workforce. And for all the reasons that we've said today, we need to build a blended solution to help improve knowledge retention and skills. The easiest way to say it is a pilot doesn't learn to fly a plane by reading a book, okay, because if they did, there'd be some serious accidents. What they actually do is they learn through reading a book through e-learning, and they go into a simulation. And they practice that simulation that allows them to fail and to get better, before they go to take the plane for their first test flight. And we want to do the same thing at a much smaller scale, but but allow that that approach to the workforce and the social care sector.

Helen Gironi

Well, thank you very much. And, you know, we know a bit about what you're offering as a company, and it is certainly hugely exciting and innovative. And if I could just turn back to the question, a discussion we had on return on investment. And it would be interesting just to talk about it from a provider's perspective, perhaps in terms of what the challenges are, how easy it is to demonstrate that return return on investment. The case.... is it a case that innovation investment in technology is slowed down because of a lack of cash, a lack of investment, or that the return on investment just isn't demonstrable yet?

Ross Toomer

Sorry, you cut out there, Helen.

Helen Gironi

Helen, could I turn to you on that on the return on investment from a provider's perspective?

Helen Davies-Parsons

Yes. So I guess it's it's one of these sort of elephants in the room, isn't it? So, if you need to buy a piece of moving and handling equipment is going to cost you £5000 pounds or you have to invest in a learning digital platform, then what are you going to do, and then clearly you're going to go for your immediate need. I think where people fail to see the benefits or the or the potential return on an investment with anything that is learning, if I'm honest, is with regards to the long-term impact that's going to have on your business. So it's not just one site. So for example, with me, I've got four homes. And the systems that I've got in place allow me to have an oversight of all four homes at the same time. So I can sit in one place, and overview what the training statistics across the four homes are without moving, essentially from my seat. So number one, there's a benefit, both in time and obviously, the challenge of sometimes getting to these places, if you know, there is a concern. I think the other thing is from a recruitment, offering. In order to attract customers into our organisation, so into our care homes, you have to have great reputation, and great reputation is built on people discussing the impact of the care and service that's been provided and the quality of that. You will only get a good quality service if you have well trained, well educated and appropriately skilled people. How much do you measure that by? Well, my measurement would be if you have one person in as a result of a recommendation, that is a fee based for you know, however long they stay. And if you consider that the average length of stay of somebody coming into a care home is around about 12 to 18 months, then, you know, depending on what your fee basis, you can do the math on that. So I think the overall and also the cost of you know, recruiting is is exorbitant when you when you think of the checks that you have to undertake before somebody is is employed, the cost of bringing them on board, the onboarding of them the training and development at the start, if you don't get it right at the start, then they will leave. So then you start all over again. And so it goes on. And it is a constant wheel of turning around. And you know, people in the short term, instead of investing for a long term gain. And it's also about being fit for the future, because, you know, there's so many places, I guess, that do not have access to digital systems, be it learning and development, be it medication management, be it care planning, be it whatever it is. Unfortunately, I don't see that they will be able to manage very well in the future with the advancement of certainly, you know, NHS services moving mostly to digital platforms. And they are going to be left behind and they're going to be lacking in the availability and the capability to access other systems if they don't have their own systems in place. So I guess that's a very long winded answer as to say, you know, your return on investment will be absolutely realised I would suspect within the first year. And that's certainly the way I've seen it. For a capital project, you know, that is a very quick return on investment.

Helen Gironi

It is isn't it. Absolutely. Steven, Ben, you're obviously selling training into residential care homes and other providers. What what are you seeing in terms of your ability to influence on return on investment?

Stephen Embleton

And, do you want to answer that?

Ben Allen

Go on Stephen. That's fine.

Stephen Embleton

Okay. So I could talk historically, in terms of what I've seen from a learning development landscape, when it comes to learning development, the challenges that I faced historically. The majority of the conversations are not about the quality of the learning that you're producing. It's not about the accreditation that you're providing. It's not about the fact that it's linked back to real life scenarios. The majority of conversations I have are around a price point. It's a very price sensitive sector. And also the recognization, the realisation that the churn rate as Helen was saying is extremely high within this space. So there are a number of providers that don't add the pieces together. So they don't think if I put really good learning and development that is going to really make a difference I'm going to keep those staff. And they accept that churn and accept that cost when it comes to recruitment. What Oomph! Wellness are addressing and doing with our solution, which is just amazing, is about the wellness, across the training; making sure people are experts and working with them for the long haul; and making sure that we're we're in and working with them throughout that whole journey that they're on. And I think that makes a real difference, but that that transparency, and connectivity, is what this sector really absolutely needs. So from a learner's perspective that they can see real value in the learning that they're doing, and then that's seen by other providers out there across the sector. So there's a lot that the sector and the regulators needs to do to step up to this. But there's a lot that we can do ourselves as well. And technology can really play that part in making that easy.

Helen Gironi

Thank you very much, Steve. And turning to another question, I'm just wondering whether you think there are any structural changes that we could make within the industry that would increase you think the uptake of learning tools by care providers and help them secure investment for those products and innovations. I'm thinking things like Kite marking, that kind of thing. And if I could turn to, to Ross, please on that?

Ross Toomer

Thanks, Helen. It's, it's challenging because there's 18+ plus thousand different providers within this sector. It's not like the the often compared sector of the NHS, which is one public body. And 18,000 providers have different priorities, along with governing bodies, awarding bodies, etc. So it's certainly a challenge. But it's something that the organisation's should be striving for. Where we're working in Scotland as an example, at the moment, the big focus is on SVQs, similar to NVQs in England. Now, there is certainly discussion ongoing, that the SVQs should be broadened to encompass the real learning needs, both vocational learning, technical skills training, and even academic learning. And we would certainly welcome that. But again, it comes back to the price point, it's not, it's a very expensive route to go for learning and education, and one that many providers will not opt for, or will require their staff to pay for themselves. So it doesn't actually become an attractive option. So we do need to look at some more collaboration and coordination across both regions, but also the leading bodies across the United Kingdom to look at that.

Helen Gironi

Brilliant. Thanks Ross. I'm going to briefly come to one of the questions on our q&a section. And please do post in your your questions, and I'll put them to the to the panel. So one individual is saying here: What are some of the emerging digital technologies that you are most excited about - think can lead to the most impactful learning and development in the sector? Who would like... would anybody like to answer that?

Ben Allen

Yeah, I'll come in on that. I truly believe I think that the biggest thing which will revolutionise the sector is this concept of responsive e-learning. I think that it's just unrealistic to think that a care worker can retain the level of knowledge that's required, without without that constant support, and that being drip fed. Equally, if you just take for example, if ....... there's a risk of a resident having a pressure sore, if you haven't dealt with a pressure sore for three to six months, naturally, you forget what you've been taught. Equally, you may deal with many pressure sores and pick up bad practice. I think if you're looking from a compliance standpoint, so one of the great things about responsive e-learning or responsive CPD is you click on the care planning software, you get some reminder contents, which comes through reminding you how to deal with that specific condition. Of course, the compliance is improved, the resident's experience has improved, the care worker's stress level is reduced. And ..... its easier to manage the home. I think that that will be a massive opportunity for social care. And alongside that the great way the Ross is doing around virtual reality and experiment. And they're really improving the training experience. I think that those two things together will be the massive things which will take the sector forwards.

Ross Toomer

Just to add on to the back of Ben's comments, which I fully agree with, and particularly pleased to hear you mention virtual reality. I'm a big advocate for individual learner journeys and not having a sheep dip approach to learning. So one of the things that we're looking at is we are looking at the learner's journey within our simulations in three parts. And this is really exciting. So the first is that programmed learning step-by-step guide on how to do something within VR. We know that VR works and people can retain up to 80% more information, they can learn up to four times faster, that's proven, and those academic studies are out there. The second is is where we are also now pushing is to take that learners journey and make it individual using AI, in particular machine learning. And what we will be looking to do is implement ML, machine learning, avatars within that experience. So they draw the data from the user and their practical skills and the application that they're undertaking within the simulation. And then build and enhance that learner journey for them. Because my skills will be different than somebody else's skills. And if I'm applying something incorrectly, we want that ML avatar to be able to identify that and steer them down the direction that they need to go. The third element that we find really exciting is the assessment part. And this is where we feel that that VR, and having a remote multiplayer simulation is is the future because we can at the moment, place a learner who may be in London, with an assessor or another learner within Glasgow, and they can be in that same virtual environment, undertaking the learning or assessment together at the same time. And that doesn't just apply to the United Kingdom that can be global. So we want to really drive that innovation, and be part of that whole blended learning solution that Ben and Steve have been talking about as well.

Helen Gironi

That's really exciting. Ross. Thank you, Helen. I think you had something to add on this?

Helen Davies-Parsons

Actually is it's possibly already been covered in in Ross's commentary, but the one thing I was going to say was actually the benefits of having a digitalized platform is the experiential learning that can be shared across organisations. So whereas learning is very much or has been very much siloed into one place, one organisation, one set of standards, I think there are huge opportunities whereby a system can be applied in many different settings across many organisations. And the sharing of best practice and Ross tapped into the globalisation of this and the, you know, cross-country development, possible, you know, sharing of practices. I think that's hugely exciting.

Stephen Embleton

It's the it's the way, we're very good within our platforms at the moment about assessing at the point of completion of a course. Where there's opportunities is about how that's been applied at three months in, six months in, nine months in. To ensure, like Ben's point, that good practice has been bled across and that it becomes a daily occurrence. And that I think that's an opportunity for someone to be really innovative in finding an approach that can be adopted across the space.

Helen Gironi

Thank you, everybody. I'm getting some more great questions in so I'm going to turn to my next one. The question of cost is clearly a key one, with Ross saying that digital solutions are expensive. What's the comparison here? Can digital solutions be compared like-for-like with existing methods of training? Or is there a value add that's not being considered?

Ben Allen

I think there is, I think one of the value adds is simply looking at so so from a cost perspective, you can look at the cost of physical training versus digital training and do a quick cost benefit analysis, that's, you know, pretty easy. The other way to look at it is actually if you've got a more compliant care home, you're more likely to achieve a good or outstanding rating with the regulator. Now Oomph! has studied base. So if a home rated good versus requires improvements, the EBITDA improvement is around 200 grand, and that's because there's, that's, you know, they've got better staffing, less agency usage, they've got better... their beds are filled, because they've got, you know, full occupancy, and they're able to charge a higher fee rate. So there is clear evidence that, that if you run a more compliant care home, delivering a great experience that the business is better. There's obviously evidence that digital, you can do a cost benefit on digital versus physical. So I think there's there are plenty of things to draw upon.

Helen Gironi

Fantastic answer. Thank you Ben. Turning to another question on our q&a chat. What do you need...What do you think needs to happen to encourage more private investment into the sector? That's a great question. And would anybody like to cover that one?

Stephen Embleton

But can I just answer that, but probably from a naive place? I think that when we talk about social care, it's normally in the context, whenever I read about it, or watch it on the news. It's always potentially in a negative space. And it's not a negative place to be. It's such a passion... There's a passion within the sector I've never experienced before in my life for wanting to do great difference wanting to make amazing experiences for people that need that, that service. And that's not vocalised enough. And so I think we need to change the rhetoric and the language that we're using when we're talking about social care and start talking about it positively and seeing the opportunities that absolutely are there. And we also see social care as the poor cousin to, you know the National Health Service and all the rest of it. And yes, it may be the poor cousin, but there is a there's a group of people, a groundswell of people, that want to make a real positive difference. So if anybody wants to invest into this space, that there's willing participants here that, absolutely will grab it with both hands. That's from a naive place. But that's my my view on that.

Ben Allen

I think that's super good point. And I think to add to that, I think, from my perspective, I think there's there is examples of investment coming into the sector, certainly into the into the supplier space. So I think it's quite public now that Living Bridge has just bought, bought Nourish, a major investment into the market. PCS has just raised significant private equity investments as well. So I think there there is examples of that, but where, but if you look at those organisations, they're working with over 1,000 care homes um a bit like Oomph!, they are able to reduce the level of fragmentation because of their reach. So I think one of the key issues to raising investment in this market is a high level of fragmentation. And and it's a noisy market. And so it's actually spotting those exemplars that've come through and really created scale.

Helen Gironi

Brilliant. Thanks very much. And I'm now going to turn to another question. What do the panel think are the biggest barriers to digital learning and development provision in the sector, and how do we overcome these? That's a great question. Would anybody like to take that one?

Helen Davies-Parsons

I'll take that. And I would suggest that there is a fear out there. And it's change. It's change from the traditional methodology and there is a belief that unless training is delivered in and by a person, that it is then not seen to be compliant. I think it is a very old fashioned way of looking at things. And having, you know, come from that space, myself some years ago, I can understand it. But I think what we need to understand if we don't already understand it, is that the age bracket of those that we are employing in the sector is generally the younger age brackets, who are far more tech savvy than probably, well, certainly me. You know, we're talking about the ages of my children and younger. So you know, there are almost three generations of people working still within the sector, the older generations may be less adept at changing into this mode of learning, but the new, you know, the new recruits that we're getting, those that we are going to grow and hopefully retain within the sector for many, many years. They are absolutely born and brought up on this stuff. And, you know, it's those people that I would suggest are the majority of new people coming into the sector, they the ones we need to focus on, and they will embrace it, they think nothing, you know, I have an issue still with, you know, texting, and they see that as the norm way of communicating rather than picking the phone up. So I think it is a fear amongst providers, who are probably not in that age group, if I'm honest, they're not going to be and certainly those in the management. You know, the management groups of organisations, they're not, they're the older groups, but I think we have to put ourselves in the spaces of people coming into the sector, age group, probably, you know, 17 to 30. Majority. This is the norm digital learning is the norm. They've been used to it in schooling. Certainly university courses and college courses are driven by digital learning. And again, to harp on about the last two years, if they weren't used to it, then they certainly are now. You know, my daughter, finished her degree via virtual learning and digital learning. So I would suggest that a lot of fear is out there. I would say, you know, don't be scared, just just go for it.

Helen Gironi

Helen thank you. That's terrific. I'm going to end things there, unless anybody has a burning sort of statement or question that they'd like to ask. But thank you so much for your time today. It's been hugely insightful. I've really enjoyed the discussions and learned a lot and thank you you for joining us, everybody. We are at Ufi ventures looking to make investments in this sector. And if you'd like to find out more about us, please go to our website, which is ufi.co.uk or get in touch, we'd love to hear from you. So I think, you know, we've covered a lot during this, during this debate and discussion. There's a huge, a number of changes within the sector that I think make it ripe for scaling and investment, and openness to technology, rich data that's being collected. And the appetite, I think, to link that data to learning. There's great passion clearly within the sector. I think there are a number of sort of limitations that the sector has to grapple with, such as price sensitivity, demonstrating return on investment for the providers of care, fragmentation within the industry. But there are a number of huge sort of opportunities to be harnessed here, such as increasing transparency across the sector; understanding, sharing information about what works really well, because I think there's a there's a lot that does work well, but it's just not so easy to see, as it could be. You know, individualising learning journeys, planning care. We've talked about bite sized learning being particularly apt for the sector, and blended learning and the ability to track that learning and take on that tracking to further career development. So I hope you've enjoyed the session as much as I have. Thank you very much, everybody.